Originally by: CCP Nozh

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Originally by: Lumy

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While you're at it, could you reorder ammo a bit? Imho the best order would be: Fusion, Phased plasma, EMP, Titanium sabot, Nuclear, Proton, Depleted uranium, Carbonized lead. The point is to have racial damage ammunition types as most damaging, best tracking and longest range ones. Than have mixed damage ammo sprinkled in between.

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This interests me. We took a look at the over all damage type distribution, and it could do with some tweaking. How do people feel about the damage types the ammo is dishing out now?

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Originally by: Mutnin

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Edited by: Mutnin on 23/09/2009 18:55:59

Originally by: Josh Silver

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If Projectiles (esp Autocannons) are so terrible, why are the Vagabond/Sleipnir etc by FAR the most popular small gang and solo ships?

I agree there is a problem with Battleship sized projectiles (and the Minmatar hull offerings in that class) and Blasters, but you have to be careful not to buff the small/med Minmatar ships even more.

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Well the Vaga is popular because it has great GTFO ability and gets fall of bonuses. Essentially the Vaga is a package in which AC's happen to preform well so it's popular.

edit.. forgot to mention that the Sleipnir also gets the much needed falloff bonus.

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Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

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Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 24/09/2009 18:59:10
Quite right. With a tweak to large artillery's damage, extra clip size and shuffling ammo/damage types around (for the explosive primary damage) a bit and projectiles are more than halfway decent.
Still need an increase in tracking for large AC's to allow for the close range option and the added fall-off as already mentioned.

Small guns are almost perfectly balanced as far as I have experienced. Largely due to the much tighter spread, but as close to perfect as we are likely to get.
Cruiser/BC guns on Rupture, Hurricane, Vagabond which are by far the most frequently used gunboats are adequate as is. They will benefit immensely from more fall-off and more focused damage types, so much so that the class risks being skewed heavily in their favour.
Any increase in medium projectile damage should be taken out of their tracking .. damn Rupture is almost unbeatable as it is guns/missiles/drones and easy fittings

PS (off topic): Tachyons for all the hate/love they invoke are maddening to fit and use. Even with maxed skills I need multiple fitting mods for a full rack and the oversized capacitor on the Apocalypse is sucked dry in no time flat.
PPS: 800's on the Apocalypse will be the new king of Amarr PvP if all changes to ammo/range/tracking go through

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Originally by: Ekeim

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I'm not very knowledgeable about projectile weapon systems in game currently, but after reading through this thread I wanted to ask if some of the discussed changes were implemented - what would the difference between hybrid turrets and projectile turrets be?

I've gathered from several posts that rate of fire is lower on projectiles than hybrids, but would that be the only drawback? If projectiles are brought in line to have the same range as hybrids, as well as the same damage per shot with equivalent hybrid range ammo, would the lower rate of fire be enough to balance against the ability to choose damage types and use no cap?

Another thing I was curious about was the focus on alpha damage. If a weapon system is designed primarily around alpha, doesn't that inherently limit it to a small range of situational effectiveness?

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Originally by: rubico1337

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Edited by: rubico1337 on 28/09/2009 05:44:54
projectile balancing is meaningless without taking into account the fallof hit-chance equation. as it stands now t2 pulses with scorch will ALWAYS out damage t2 ACs with barrage out to obscenely long distances


green is scorch red is barrage

this was done at all lvl 5 with largest t2 guns with barrage/scorch. no ship bonuses where applied
the penalty of cap use simply does not matter in the face of superior damage and superior range, blus the ability to switch out crystals at will. if ACs are supposed to fight in falloff and be effective they need a 50% OR SO FALLOFF BOOST or a complete reworking of the falloff equation.

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Originally by: Kalia Masaer

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Really the only way for a fair comparison is with items fitted in ships with the same equivelant bonuses or no bonuses. As really when you consider it if you balance AC's in a Hurricane compared to a Myrmidon well that is just going to end badly because it would be so hard to see the line. Now comparing the turrets on an Abaddon and a Maelstrom well you may was well compare turrets without bothering with a ship bonus.

All weapon systems need to be viable on an unbonused ship unless the intended race for those ships recieves an additional bonus or you simply create more imbalance.

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Originally by: Mioelnir

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Emp S currently has EM 5, Explosive 4, Kinetic 2, Total 11.

New Emp S gets +1 EM for EM 6, Explosive 4, Kinetic 2, Total 12 (+9.1%)

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Originally by: Elaron

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Edited by: Elaron on 28/09/2009 20:34:05

Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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The design goal itself directly contradicts the idea of alpha davantage. So either the design goal was badly thought and need to be abandoned OR alpha-strike as an advantage must be abandoned and something else must be given to artillery (as the same dps potential of lasers for example at the same ranges).

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I've expressed elsewhere my opinion that boosting alpha strike for artillery without addressing the other shortcomings of the weapon system feels like a placebo; something to make Minmatar pilots think that there's been an improvement in usability without actually giving anything substantial to it. In hindsight, Nozh's statements support that hypothesis as the alpha change seems to be blinding people with the promise of big alpha strike numbers.

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Originally by: RedSplat

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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And there has been an improvement. Now a tempest is the best large scale gate camper in game. You put 3 SB with locking speed and 5 tempest can insta pop some BC.

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Or you can just fly any 5 other BS and accomplish the same thing without having to use a sucky weapons system and ship- and frankly, so what if you can kill a BC with 5 other ships.

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Originally by: Elaron

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Edited by: Elaron on 28/09/2009 21:14:38

Originally by: Seishi Maru

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And there has been an improvement. Now a tempest is the best large scale gate camper in game. You put 3 SB with locking speed and 5 tempest can insta pop some BC.

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And then the pilots all scream with rage when the typical 17 second RoF means you can't get another shot off before the rest of the target gang warps off.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Kaito Haakkainen

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Please spill, even if it's just wild speculation.

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Well, if things scale with ammo size (wild speculation as far as I'm concerned), then you'll be hard pressed to outdamage a proj Mael with a laser Mael in any reasonably meaningful way. Not that you won't be severely outdamaged by a laser bonused ship, just that you won't be outdamaged by unbonused lasers anymore. \o/

-Liang

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Originally by: NightmareX

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Edited by: NightmareX on 29/09/2009 17:42:23

Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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Blasters are broken when comapred to pulses and they must be fixed. Evenso they are slightly better than ACs, because they have a real damage advantage against lasers, albeit in a very small range. ACs have none

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No. Lasers need to be fixed so it can be balanced to the 3 other weapon systems.

Now when Projectiles gets boosted, then everything will be fine if they also balance the Lasers to be inline with the 3 other weapon types.

When i say balance the Lasers, then i mean the tracking need to be nerfed by at least 15% on Lasers. Lasers needs the range it have with Scorch. But it's just really ******ed when you can get that much DPS, that much range and on top of that, really good tracking at med range.

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Originally by: Jason TerrorBlade

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My 2 cents:

Seeing what CCP wrote about the changes of projectile ammo i cant stop wondering that the long range/sniper Tempest will deal less damage, same for the long range Muninn maybe. If this is your idea of "buffing" and "looking into" CCP i dont want it. If you really want to buff minmatar gunnery, work on the tracking,optimal,damage modifier, rate of fire) of autocannons/artillery (especially on rate of fire/damage modifier and tracking) or atleast buff the close range ammo without taking damage from long range ammo.

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Originally by: Ath Amon

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the choices on graph seem quite "strange" also the mega seem low on dps, we also dont know how many dmg mods are mounting these ships...

now the problem... other than the "big" new tempest line... in truth comparing it to the tach geddon (??) the pest have a dmg advantage of 8s at the start, 4 sec after 16s and another few sec and another 2-3s later on...

so the improved alpha will give a total advantage to that pest of... 15s over 60s with no reload... at the 4th volley that geddon have alredy built enought dps (+alpha) that the pest doesnt touch it anymore

so now how many battles are end in 8s? is 15s of supposed "dmg superiority" worth the low dps/low range/low tracking?

because that is the supposed superiority... add dmg reduction from faloff and tracking and here that arty will look as gimped as usual...

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Originally by: WarDecEvading NPCCorpAlt

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Edited by: WarDecEvading NPCCorpAlt on 30/09/2009 11:11:53

Originally by: Alex Harumichi

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Having used hybrids and lasers quite a bit, I'd claim that cap use is far, far from "no big deal". But that's just my opinion.

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Cap use on the Apocalypse is pretty much a joke, and it's certainly not enough of an issue to warrant a 51% difference in optimal.

No, they don't have to be equivalent, but something like 10-15km less optimal and 20-30km more falloff would probably be an acceptable trade. That's not really the case though, the difference in optimal is staggering.

Quote:

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that means Minnie ships must use different tactics from other races.

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Like what?

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Originally by: Hun Jakuza

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Edited by: Hun Jakuza on 30/09/2009 13:52:48

Originally by: Seishi Maru

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....The only real disadvantages are in range and tracking. But if you manage to engage at 150 km the tempest and maesltrom now are the BEST snipers against large targets.

Alpha advantage is somethign REAL and simply math verifiable. You have ship a with alpha 5k and ship b with alpha 2k. Ship A has 300 dps SHip B has 330 dps...

The firign start at time ZERO. giving the A ship a 3k damage advantage that must be recovered by the larger ROF of the other ship. Ship B will take 100 SECONDS to move its damage curve completely ahead of ship B.

That is the time you have advantage.. 100 seconds not 8-9 seconds....

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Not realy.

1st:
Alpha it's under 5k , and an apoc have over 2700, but..... (not reach 2x)
The Apoc can shot ~3,5X time faster than pest.

2nd:
With Apoc you can shot with faction standard ammo 128+25 (1 computer 2x enhancer) without tracking penalty (over 3300 alpha) and you can change the ammo under 1 sec.
Try it arty with faction ammo Depleted uranium (0% range like standard ammo) . You can shot to 78+44 (1 computer 2x enhancer)

You feel the difference ?

3rd:
What will be happen when a fast tackler coming from 150km?
First you need to targeting he. (~4sec) He will be at ~138km.
Sabre have with one medium shield extender effective 4850HP.
Your first shot wont kill him because he have 50% explo resist and your ~5k alpha will be halves. If the pilot have experience try to move to you with angle and you shot because the arty have bad tracking (oh noooo laser better again) you scrached or missed him.
You trying to shot again him, but you need 16-20 seconds for the second shot. He move to you over 3k (~3200 m/s with simple t2 fit), so he fly more ~50-64km.
You cant hit him with t2 ammo, the bad tracking not too good for you, but if you try it to change you lost another 10 second and more 32000 meter and bb u are died and you couldn't kill anything.

An apoc can kill him easier, because he can shot many times when the tackler far away from apoc.

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Originally by: Hun Jakuza

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Edited by: Hun Jakuza on 30/09/2009 14:15:35

Originally by: Seishi Maru

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bla
If you use new EMP ammo your alpha is 11.2K damage.. yes it MIGHT instapops a sabre!

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Naomi Knight this is not truth, you will never hit a sabre with EMP L, just if he stand for you.
But he will not.
And other thing, we dont wanna same weapon styles yes, but i hope, the overpowered ships like Apoc and other overpowered amarr ships which ruined the game, maybe will be get a little nerf.
The other races starting the games with disadvantage and that's not too good for game.
I saw when the RR gangs have just geddons, i saw when a sniper gang 80% is apoc. We want to see another races ships in fleet too.

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Originally by: Ath Amon

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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Edited by: Seishi Maru on 30/09/2009 13:31:24
Updated chart.


Now with new maesltrom, and a 7 tachyon apoc and a 8 tachyon apoc. All ships agaion with 3 damage mods and long range t2 ammo. All ships with largest guns possible! 425mm T2 on the rail ships.


Notice how only the 8 tachyon apoc is abl to come close to arti boats in damage dealt by the end of the first minute. THe issue is.. 8 tachyosn apocs with 3 damage mods are not really standard fitting on fleets! THe common choise is 7 tachyons.
UPDATED DISCREETE CHART

The arti changes are great! Only blind stubborn people cannot see it! Or people really math chanlanged that cannto udnerstand that the alpha advantage doe snto end at the second shot but only at the point when the alpha strike ship curve stays permanently behind the other ships curve.


It's pretty simple. APOC with tachyons is king at logner ranges and longer fights. MEga is good at long range and smaller targets. MAesltrom is THE BEST up to 150 km against fairly imobile targets for up to about 100 seconds (countign realistic fittings of 7 tachyon apoc as adversary)!

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with 1.75 indeed it look a bit better, but 60s is a bit short... can you do that for 330s (just before reload) and for 20mins?

also there will be still the problem of range... a mael/pest to reach a "decent" range will have to fit 3 tc to keep a kinda decent tank it will have probably to sacrifice a gyro, lowering its dmg and it will still fall pretty short compared to other bs

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Originally by: Bomberlocks

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Originally by: CCP Nozh

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Over the years we've made many changes to other weapon systems, ships and mechanics that have rendered some of the projectiles advantages moot. We're going to attempt to fix this with various tweaks and fixes.

Here's a graph that shows the damage trend of small ammunition types.....

You'll quickly notice what players have already been pointing out here on the forums. The high damage / close range projectile ammo is subpar when compared to the other ammo types, but when you look at the bigger picture, you'll also see there are some compensations. The original balance of projectile ammo seems to be skewed towards long range variations. Adjusting the projectile ammo to match its counterparts gives Phased Plasma ammo a 10% damage increase and EMP ammo a ~9.1% damage increase, while reducing the damage of the long range variations. The change will give auto-cannons a good performance boost, and make long range munitions easier to balance through the damage modifier.

Mid-range crystals and hybrid charges give a bonus to capacitor consumption, projectile ammo is reduced in size. We don't like this, so we're looking at changing it to a tracking bonus.

After ship hitpoint adjustments, the alpha strike of artilleries isn't nearly as impressive as it was a while back. In our first iteration of these changes we've increased the damage modifier by 50%, along with the rate of fire. The DPS stays in place, but the volley damage is increased significantly. With the increased volley damage, and increased rate of fire, the clip size doesn't matter as much. We still feel that it can use a boost. We're looking at doubling it across the board, now with uniform ammo size.

Other things we might be looking at:

ò Auto-cannon tracking adjustments
ò Auto-cannon tier balancing

Please leave feedback in this thread. The changes will be made available for public testing next Wednesday on Singularity.

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The 40 second RoF for 1400 II and 33 second RoF for 1200 II arties is not acceptable. I know you were trying to keep the "balanced" but I think you'll be making large arties only good for one single thing in future: Alpha strike. Not sniping, not fleet matches, not PvE mission grinding (for which they're pretty much ok at the moment) only alpha strike. I think most of us could live with a 30% to 50% RoF increase, but 100% is simply extreme. It makes the arties even less useful than they were in the long run, IMO.

Please try a variation on Sisi with a better RoF (perhaps around 28 secs or 31 secs base Rof for 1400 arties) and a slightly lower damage modifier (instead of 12+, reduce it to perhaps 11 or 10).

There is honestly no need to penalise the arties in this way.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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The firign start at time ZERO. giving the A ship a 3k damage advantage that must be recovered by the larger ROF of the other ship. Ship B will take 100 SECONDS to move its damage curve completely ahead of ship B.

That is the time you have advantage.. 100 seconds not 8-9 seconds....

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THIS IS NOT TRUE. The alpha ship starts off with a large advantage consisting of (usually) two volleys of the higher ROF ship. Then from that time until the next volley from the alpha ship, the high DPS ship actually has the advantage.

THE ALPHA SHIP DOES NOT MAINTAIN THE ADVANTAGE FOR 100 SECONDS.

-Liang

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 30/09/2009 18:21:33

Originally by: Seishi Maru

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If you want to know how damage would be at 170 km then just reduce minmatar damage by 18% (that with the theoretical falloff mechanism, not taking into account the complexities if the reduced hit qualities). That basically put the maelstrom about same place as the tempest is on this chart.

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The hit quality damage reduction is not complex. At 18% of miss the hit quality is reduced to 92%. The end result is 75% of the nominal damage, not 82% as you hinted.

Quote:

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I can make a tempest or maesltrom that has 3 damage mods and 3 range modules. THat is standard fleet fit, much more standard than 8 tachyon apocs with 3 damage mods to be fair.

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1) No you can't have a 150 km sniper with EHP comparable to a Rokh or an Apoc and 3 damage modules. It is just impossible. Tbh it is also impossible with 2 damage modules, but you can AT LEAST have "just" 10% less EHP and 10% less dps. That is the best you can do, really.

2) It is NOT the standard fit, as your EHP becomes too low and it is NOT WORTH IT to have a little more dps and a lot less EHP

3) it is easier to make a 8 Tachyons Apocalypse, meaning you compromise less, than a 3 Gyros Maelstrom or Tempest. And teh end result will be better too. People use the 7 tachyon Apocalypse because it is EVEN better than the 8 tachyon one, meaning the EHP difference outweights the decrease in damage.

Quote:

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At end its YOUR job as minmatar pilot to convince your FC to engage at 160 km not 200 to take advantage of your fleet composition. THAT is what this game is about, selecting how to use your advantages. A FC that have 1/3 of his fleet made by tempests would be stupid to engage at 200 km. CCP cannot correct biased mind of players, that is up to themselves to fix.

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It has nothing to do with bias, but with strategy. At 150 km the opponent, if he does not have a significant number of artillery ships willengage in even terms with you. At 160 or more he will have the advantage. Thus, in the best case scenario, in the situations where you CAN choose, you will be on even grounds, in those you CAN'T choose, though, those in which THEY choose the engagement distance you will be severily outmatched.

Superior range for the same or higher dps means superior sniper. There is no way around it. That is why AMMUNITIONS HAVE DIMINUSHING DAMAGE AS THEY INCREASE IN RANGE. The game was balanced with this in mind. The devs just forgot about maintaining the same balance BETWEEN RACES.

Quote:

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At 200 km Atties are CRAP! But THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO! At 150 km they are SUPERIOR ! If you are engaging a dread at 150 km your arties are the BEST WEAPON! Arties need to have a disadvantage (Taht you guys are trying to deny) and its range and tracking! IF you engage a vagabond at 190 km arties are the WORSE weapon. If you engage a battleship at aroudn 170 km arties are about EQUAL to other weapons!

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At 150 km arties are just slightly inferior to lasers, because:

1) They have lower dps than lasers
2) Both minnie snipers need 3 range modules, which makes it impossible for them to equip the same number of damage modules and tank of Amarr snipers.
3) Laser tracking is almost 60% higher

At 160 km or more artillery is overwhelmingly inferior, because it has EVEN LESS real damage...

So basically beam lasers have: more dps, more range and more tracking.

Quote:

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That is flavor! That is real BALANCE! That is tactics, that is EVE!

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This is NOT FLAVOR, this is a CLEAR imbalance. Lets just switch the attributes of artilleries and lasers and see how much you speak of flavor.

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Originally by: Orakkus

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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The calculation is still valid and it will ALWAYS be. If a ship has superior dps and lower alpha IT MUST catch on between the higher alpha ship lower dps ship's volleys in increasing intervals until it surpassses it for good. It is basic math...

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I should have been more clear I guess. The part that seems to stand out to me was that the DPS figures caught up to the Alpha figures after two volleys (this was a noted fact prior to the current SiSi upgrade). With the current setup on SiSi with an upgrade to Ammo, as well as an upgrade to the damage modifier on the artilleries, plus a 50% ROF increase should change that dynamic to a much longer period time before DPS does catch up to Alpha. I think that was addressed with the previously mentioned graph. Still, if I am missing something, feel free to clarifty. Personally, while I still have yet to test them on SiSi, I think this change will favor having Minmatar ships in fleet (while not placing them in the realms of the Amarr or Gallente or Caldari ship tactics).

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Edited by: Liang Nuren on 30/09/2009 20:44:47

Originally by: Seishi Maru

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DPS does not catch up to alpha when the other ship curve passes first time ahead. IT only catches up when it passes COMPLETELY ahead. That means when arti does not have advantage at any moment.

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You are wrong. At T=16, who has done the most DPS? Who has done the most damage? It isn't artillery. Now, don't get me wrong - that's a function of having high alpha. But you're trying to pretend like artillery is "ahead in DPS" even though it's only in a damage advantage 1 second out of 17 (towards the tail of this graph).

I've always been a fan of alpha, but you're drastically misrepresenting the facts here. Alpha is advantageous (as far as DPS goes) if the fight ENDS at a time where it's done higher damage.

Quote:

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Want to see damage LINE you link the corners of the stair between each shot. The derivative of that function is the DPS over time (not instant dps, that is a different concept)

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Actually, you would link through midpoints unless you are deliberately trying to distort the graph. Which you seem to be wanting to do.

-Liang

Ed: Spelling

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Originally by: Uncle Smokey

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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no YOU are wrong! You are the one with zero comprehension of MATH! The important is the sum of the areas under the curve and the angular factor of the damage application that correspond to...

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any other construction workers who found this part funny? :D

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Edited by: AstroPhobic on 30/09/2009 21:24:44
You can't derive those pointy things. You can play connect the dots, though.

ed: smokey was laughing 'cause he had no clue what the hell you were on about

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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stuff too long to quote

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Originally by: Neutrino Sunset

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Edited by: Neutrino Sunset on 07/10/2009 02:23:07
Edited by: Neutrino Sunset on 07/10/2009 02:22:24
Edited by: Neutrino Sunset on 07/10/2009 02:21:50

Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Also: I'd sooner have better tracking/range on arties then alpha, but you cannot have both really, for reasons outlined in the thread.

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Not being funny or anything but I've read the whole thread and I must have missed this bit. I caught the whole bit about how alpha is mostly just a change that gives the guns character and in no way make makes up for crap dps. So why must we have worst dps, worst range and worst tracking again? Because that's what's implied by with the notion that we should only expect to be able to have decent alpha isn't it?

If as you say the changes are fine for you, how do you make sense of the idea that the shortest range guns on the (ever so slightly) fastest ships should have tracking that is over 50% worse than the longest range guns on the slowest ships?

Edit: I'm assuming by 'tracking/range' you mean tracking _or_ range not both, with tracking being my preference.

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Originally by: Neutrino Sunset

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stuff

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Originally by: Caldor Mansi

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Edited by: Caldor Mansi on 21/10/2009 08:48:35

Originally by: Washell Olivaw

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4. None of us added anything new after the first 5 pages, but added 2 cents anyway.

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Sometimes you just need to cry out laud to be heard, even though it was said many times before...


Proposed changes are not helping anything.

Originally by: ijustwannatalk

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The fact that nozh isn't replying means one of three things:

1. he's been fired (we can wish, but it if hasn't happened yet, its probably not going to :( )
2. he doesn't like the feedback from this thread so he's going to ignore it and let it die like the other two mentioned earlier
3. he's already decided what the fix is going to be and is going to ignore all feedback, kind of like what he did with carriers and speed.

There's a reason he's the only dev that's ever had the honor of his own thread requesting he be dismissed from his post, and its not because he's good at it.

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Nicely summed up.

/signed :)

To be fair, Nozh is not the only one suffering the issue of having no idea what he's doing. Considering late changes and additions to the game you can quickly come to the conclusion that they are not made to make the game better but to get the paycheck only...

Improving the game just for the sake fo improving is not the right way for game development...

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Originally by: Caldor Mansi

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I don't care wheter they are 'helping a lot', they are not addressing the issue. It is just another band aid without solving anything.

1) Fusion / EMP damage swap - lasers would need to hit the hardest resist while being shot on the lowest. It is already silly as it is with T2 Matar ships having ridiculus 90% EM.

2) Fall-off bonus - unecessary boost to lasers.

3) Don't ask about vision the person who claims he will fly Blaster boat with AB fitted after the speed changes last year..you ask for troubles.
Tempest is decent close range ship, imo. Malestrom is the intended sniper - yeah, with shield boost bonus...

4) Fall-off curve is fine. As I see it, you have 3 options with Matar AC ships:
a) close range DPS Typhoon
b) close range utility Tempest
c) 20km range Maelstrom

5) The fact you enjoy new arties for low sec does not mean the changes 'rock'... High aplha is nice but only with very specific use, what about people who do not need high aplha? As I sugested, the changes would be more suitable when transformed into T2 ammo.
Also..increasing aplha on guns and ships that has lowest range and absolutely awfull tracking is a bit...silly.

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Originally by: Caldor Mansi

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No, giving citadel launcher to battleships would be the same as adding aplha to arties. Usefull in situations where you are able to apply their damage, under other circumstances not that great.

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Originally by: Tokran Inami

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Hail working fine against targets of your size? A Tempest with 800mm ACs and all lvl 5 skills cant even track a standard non-ABed, webbed and scrammed BS orbiting it at close Range. Only use for hail is for shooting ships LARGER than your size category while youself dont need any cap.

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Ahem.. orbiting it at close range? Why would you let it orbit you at close range? Clicking disabled maybe?

Frankly, I really like the fact that we both have a functioning ammo for sheildtanks and great ammo for killing all non-Minmatar T2 crap, and have a functioning ammo for T1 armour. EM is a preety awesome damage type.

Changing Fusion and EMP just makes Minmatar easier to use in hands of people who don't know how to, eg. use T2 ammo, while on the other hand nerfing the very useful damage type versatility for people who do.

Sure, it's not really relevant for larger gangs where you aren't going to reload specific ammo for this or that, but I prefer our ships being oriented towards small fights where it matters and not towards BS slugging it out with other BS gangs. Which you have the Typhoon for anyway.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Zarnak Wulf

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Astro is going to **** himself. The TE/TC improvements will help out the other races as well. Do Hybrids need a look after this?

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I don't know - it's one of the major things on my agenda when it hits sisi. I will be posting a very large selection of graphs as soon as it hits and I find the time.

-Liang

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Originally by: Pattern Clarc

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Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 28/10/2009 23:40:12

Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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completely irrelevant (both answers).

The hac gangs use shield tank because shields repair immediately!

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What a load of rubbish.
HAC's have barely enough EHP to make it count, lose there shields and on the next volley they explode. A shield RR battleship would be vastly more effective, the only thing hindering there use are the lack of platforms (2 armour tanking bs's for every shield) and the insane CPU requirements for shield tansferers, and even then it's more common than you think..

Originally by: Nuts Nougat

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This. If you want a tank+gank ship there's typhoon, maelstrom, mega, geddon, raven, abaddon.

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Haven't you considered the idea that "Tank+Gank" is what Battleships do. This is there role, this is why people fly them. When they fail at this role they are either displacing a ship in a smaller size class, or being displaced by a ship in a smaller size class (sup scorpion) or just full on useless, thats where the tempest is at right now.

Originally by: AstroPhobic

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My proposed: 10% agility/speed

New Tempest: 165m/s, 10.7s align
Hurricane : 206m/s, 8.5s align

Not seeing any issues, and certainly not close enough to say hurricane=tempest. We have the phoon and mael for tank+gank, no reason for a 3rd.

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See above, and congrats on giving the tempest the same speed as the Typhoon, that is so going to make me change my mind and fly it over it's peers :/.
Whilst messing with speed and agility, there's either no point, or you cross the thresh hold and make smaller ships redundant.

More speed, more agility will either mean nothing changes, or your battlecruisers and Muninn hac's become meaningless. The new Machariel is working just because it has crossed the threshold (oh, and has a full armour tank and decent drone bay) - it has cruiser speed, and battlecruiser agility, wanting something like that at T1 level will only make your battlecruisers pointless.

Originally by: AstroPhobic

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The great thing about shield tanks is you can make 5/6 and 7/4 a shield tank. Sure you lack all that tackle with the 5/6, but you can still throw on MWD, point, 3x buffer and have 6 lows to play with a DCU, 3 gyros and a mix of TE and nano. Along with 2 heavy neuts, you're going to slaughter some BCs/cruisers.

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*psyduck*


Your vastly superior with a 8/7/4 tank, you might be more limited in how you fit, but i'd rather have a ship with 1 good fit, than a ship with lots of ****ty, sub-optimal fits.

Originally by: AstroPhobic

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I'm not saying 7/4 is a bad idea, it has merits, but I think it would be just as easy to leave it "as is" and throw an extra engine on the back.

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The path of least resistance leads to the bottom of the pile.

As far as balancing is concerned, if it's a good idea and enough people want it, regardless of "how easy it will be", then the dev's will usually listen.

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Originally by: Gypsio III

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Edited by: Gypsio III on 29/10/2009 13:19:23

BTW, after we boost projectiles, then boost hybrids, I'll be starting some "boost missiles" whinethreads.

Or you could just tweak laser tracking a bit, alter some projectile stuff a bit and fix T2 ammo (including Scorch). It would be a lot simpler and avoid this horrible power creep.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Pattern Clarc

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So thats a Hyperion with 3 damage mods getting ****d at most ranges 9barring <5km, where it's even with a Maesltrom) vs anything with resistances?

/ME PREPARES THE BOOST GALLENTE THREAD.

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Roughly speaking, yes. I don't guarantee 100% that there's no bugs in the code, but it looks pretty reasonable and believable until you apply resistances. And then it just looks sad. Or funny. Hard to say.

Picking damage types as purely as they're offering is an amazing boost... regardless of the rest of it. I think they took like the top 10 ideas and implemented them all or something.

-Liang

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Originally by: Seriously Bored

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Liang, you're a god for providing the graphs. I'll try to email you something later today. After looking those over, now I'm wondering if even my suggestion to tone down the ammo is too extreme. I think I purified the "colors" even more in what I posted...

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Originally by: Pattern Clarc

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Originally by: Caroline Nikon

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[
After these changes a smart armor tanker will drop 1 damage mod for a Explosive hardener or an EANM.. omg god forbids from us having to loose something to be safe from minmatar weaponry!

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So we will fly our Tempests with no damage mods now to be safe from our own weapons? AWESOME!

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Originally by: Gypsio III

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Originally by: Caroline Nikon

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9/10 times missile launchers fire kinetic of EM.

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On the BS scale? Er, no.

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Originally by: Gypsio III

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Edited by: Gypsio III on 30/10/2009 15:36:40

Originally by: Nuts Nougat

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Shield omni-tanks on the other hand always fit em hardener, or at least a rig, just because of the lasers. If this is OK on shields, why is it unacceptable on armor?

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For a T1 shield tank, it's unwise to drop an extender rig for an EM resist rig. Take a basic buffer Raven, with dual LSE, dual Inv and DC. With three extender rigs and overheated Invs, you have 117k EHP to multifreq in gang. Drop an extender for an EM resist and you lose EHP even to multifreq, dropping to 115k EHP.

Even against Scorch, you only gain a bit more EHP with the EM rig - about 1k HP.

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Originally by: Uncle Smokey

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Weaker omni tanks? Why would you have to sacrifice your omni tank to put in another mod to counter explosive damage? I think it's reasonable that if you want to, for example put in 3 damage mods or something, you give up some resistance.

Even if the big boys here conclude that PP will be the end game ammunition, I just can't see people giving up on thermal. Never.

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Originally by: Meeko Atari

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This "fix" is a smokescreen

you do not fix a flat tire by looking under the hood.
balancing a weapon system around a module that also affects all other (turreted) weapon systems
is not addressing the core problem.

I fear this "balancing" is going to do nothing
there is no focus, there is no plan

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Originally by: Schmell

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Originally by: Haffrage

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I think the maelstrom needs a damage bonus instead of a rof bonus, and more drone space to make up for lowered ac setup damage output.

Artillery has no actual alpha platform, while both hybrids AND lasers have platforms capable of achieving 10 effective turret volleys. That doesn't make sense

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Would you enjoy 30-40 sec cooldown of 1400`s on that mael?

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Originally by: To mare

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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BACKSTABBING!

While we were all focused here.. CCP massively nerfed the naglfar at test server!


Now its WORSE than before the naglfar boost. Its 5% projectiles DAMAGE per level and 5% citatels rof per level



WTF CCP!!

We had a 40 pages long thread PROVING that split weapons suck at the naglfar bosot time we convinced you and you gave us a nice ship.. Now a few months later just roll back to WORSE than before?

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i hope its a mistake or some kind of test because its not possible

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Originally by: Relicc

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I want to know if you all think its fair that medium arty has an optimal of 15km with short range ammo, are you only supposed to use it on stationary targets? Where is the short range tracking bonus on ammo?

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Originally by: BearCare

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Originally by: Seriously Bored

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I just checked Sisi, and the rumors about the Nag are true. Looks like an incredibly bad choice to me.

The ship really should keep a double damage bonus to projectiles, even if that bonus needs to be reduced to bring it in line.

On another note, I'm finally able to confirm that all projectile ammo changes have been brought up to the XL level. (Something I expected, but was never said explicitly.)

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This, unless they buff the **** out of XL artillery/autocannons, is the worst idea they've ever come up with. Since autos on dreads are useless, I don't really care, but artillery NEEDS the old buffed long range ammo to be competetive at any range beyond 160km. And since short range ammo had lower damage, we had citadels to compensate, making naglfars decent at both long and short range.

With the new ammo changes they will be just plain horrible anywhere beyond 60km.

As for the new bonuses, I guess people will use nags like they use typhoons now. Can you run neuts/smartbombs while in siege?

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Originally by: Nuts Nougat

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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You answered yourself. EMP Fusion and phased are used by all projectiles. CArbo and nuclear are used by arties only, more specifically by munin only (sicne battleships use short range ammo or tremor ).

Therefore short range parity with other types o weaposn is MORE important. Abdicatign the light advantage we had at long range is a very very ligth weight price to correct the huge disparity close range. And is nothign but fair since the whole concept of our complain was that ammos should escalate equaly to hybrids and crystals.

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It's all cool though, amarr doesn't need any competition at any range as long as we don't have ammo disparities.

Also last time I checked multifreq did more damage and had less range than radio... Artilleries don't have this option anymore, the next ammo is 1.0 mod, which, frankly, blows. Either put long range ammos back to 1.2 1.4 1.6 tiers, or introduce more range tiers for the "true damage type versatility" thingy...

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/11/2009 17:16:12

Originally by: Nuts Nougat

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On the other hand, smaller tiers now have even more tracking, negating the laughable falloff/dps increase.

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Yeah, if you only consider firing on interceptors and nothing else matters to you.

For other things, 425s will simply do better DPS out of webrange (and up close webs and such exist anyway, transversal+range control in webrange is trivial business so tracking largely becomes a moot point). MWD-ing cruiser hulls, particularly with shield buffer, have huge signature radiuses. Range lowering DPS is far more of a issue (where 425s have more of it, meaning higher to hit chance and smaller hit quality reduction) unless target is up close (where it's going to be webbed).

For a small exercise, compare to hit chances of 425s with D180s, assuming Barrage and one TE (23.4km falloff for 425s, 19.5km with Barrage, optimal at 2.5 and 3 respectively). Set 425 tracking to 0.108 (single TE+barrage). Set D180 tracking to, say, 9999999999999 (so it tracks everything everywhere perfectly). Now fire at a Vaga (signature is 990m) which has 4km/s pure transversal.

425s have a better TO HIT chance then basically infinitely tracking D180s starting with edge of overheated webrange, nevermind greater DPS.

Dual-TE 720s have a better to hit chance then both starting with 20km, and better to hit chance then infinitely tracking D180s starting with 18km.

Range>tracking.

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Originally by: Nuts Nougat

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Originally by: Skaverni

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Nuts Nougat are realy this blind? Muninn is the second best sniper hac atm, with alpha boost it will be awesome I would choose it over any other hac for fleet uses.

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See there's only one tiny little problem with that.
Unless you use tremor and only shoot slow cruisers and larger, the alpha is in fact now smaller on the muninn at sniper hac (100km) ranges, thanks to LR ammo nerf.

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Originally by: Meeko Atari

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However nothing in this thread can actually be considered a buff to the Minmatar weapon system...just a change.

All turrets received something big or small, useful or not. This was not a Projectile Balance solution.

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Originally by: Succubine

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The ammo changes are fine. Some ships are lacking due to changes in play styles or alterations in other ships and should be looked at individually.

The Muninn is screwed from optimal sniper hac performance due to its drone bay and missile slots. What range is the Muninn able to take advantage of all its features? A nice suicidal (considering tank, price, and fleet sizes) range of ~50km.

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Originally by: Nuts Nougat

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too long to quote

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Originally by: Hun Jakuza

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I see it before my eyes as soon as the half of fleet jumping out from battlefield and when warping back to field the other half of fleet died because the enemies fleet outnumbered when the minie BSs warped out.
I see it before my eyes as soon as when FC give orders minie BSs shot primaries and warp out, and the bunches of tempests shot one ship and lost the firepowers.
Bravo, but you guys are proud, for bad changes.
A

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Originally by: Beverly Sparks

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Edited by: Beverly Sparks on 02/12/2009 19:05:34
Overall this is a buff, there is no denying it.

The TE/TC buff is great. The selectable damage type and damage buff is great.

And people seem to think being able to switch damage type means switching damage mid fight.... Well we all know that doesn't work. But as we go from FOTM to FOTM, we now have damage types to roll with FOTM. Shield Buffered HAC gang with a couple of shield logis? Pull out the EMP or the Phased Plasma. Scout spots RR BS gang, grab the Fusion.

If anybody doesn't see any value in that, then they are thick. This has been made possible through the buffs. Fusion is now the best ammo hands down to kill T1 Armor tanks. And for T2 shield tanks, I gotta go with Phased plasma.

The ammo tracking buff is stupid. I wish they didn't do that. There is absolutely no reasoning behind it, other than to try and make mid range ammo more attractive, since no one at present uses the stuff.

Anyway, I am happy with these buffs for a start. I think there are a few more needed in certain areas. (increased tracking on arty) but they did address some of the minmatar issues, and I think they buffed them about the right amount.

Hopefully they won't close the book on Turret balance, and keep it an ongoing thing, with small adjustments here and there.

Artillery is still the shortest range, worst tracking, and lowest DPS long range weapon out their. That is still a few too many strikes against it, even with the changes.

Anyway, thanks CCP for throwing us a bone, at least.

ps Buff the Tempests PG so that it can fit 6x1400 with no RCU II.

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Originally by: tisss

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dunno where u fly it, but appearing with ur funny construction on any of the serious alliances killboards would only make people smile at You. dps/range is as important to sniper bs as its EHP. it will stay so, even tho we're past aoe-dd. proper fit is SUPPOSED to balance those things, meanwhile You go all out dps + FUNNY rigs. guess u never been bombed/alpha'ed...but dont worry, spawning such crappy fits u got pretty high chance to experience those things.

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Originally by: Roland Thorne

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Auto tiers were adjusted for the better, ammo is sorted much nicer now, and has bonuses for close range, and arties have more alpha.

Now with the bad...

Tempest was ignored, Nag is useless again, and the only long-range ammo worth shooting is the t2 Tremor, and it shouldn't be that way.

Seriously, I'd also like to see minmatar have more of a racial speed difference, but that is about likely to happen as hell freezing over or amarr being nerfed. That don't matter much now though, cause for better or for worse, Minmatar is now, by design, a close-combat race.

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Originally by: Juliette DuBois

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Are tachyons even needed anymore? Weren¦t they some kind of CCP bandaid for amarr suckiness anyway... Would be easy to change all tachyons into megabeams and be done with it.

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Originally by: Schmell

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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You guys are still being too pedantic. We just got a HUGE improvement. WE do not need to be on par with apocalypse. That is now how game balance works. Apoc is superior on sniper role, but try an apoc close range against a tempest to see how quickly it is murdered.

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Yeah, ppl are too greedy. Tempest is now very good for fleet fights, especially laggy ones. Good performance, price and top positions in most of bs killmails lol

Still it would be not bad to revert old apoc bonus, cuz according to backstories caldari are kings of long range (among long range weapon), not amarr

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Originally by: Nuts Nougat

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Quote:

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increased tracking speed and a devastating amount of damage.

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I am now very confused.

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Originally by: Ketusan

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I have seen arty-cruisers insta-popping frigates regularly.

It's pretty stupid, and honestly not in any way a "game balance" effect.

You really have to go back and revisit what you have done, you have done a lot to bring projectiles back to the battlefield, but some of the side-effects are over-powering.

You need to consider dropping the Alpha strike of the weapons, because it is far too much damage on smaller ships.

I recommend looking at our good old friend signature resolution to fix this.

Increase signature resolution on Projectile weapons so they're less effective against smaller ships. It makes sense really, a Projectile weapon is a huge freaking slug compared to a focused laser or Magnetically slung railgun slug.

If that helps to reduce damage to smaller ships, than please implement it.

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Originally by: Schmell

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Not necessarily. IRL missiles have timers, detectors of various kind, they can be detonated remotery by a command from ship at last. I`m not sure about shells, but why not. Eve universe have warp drives and omgpwn lazorz, so its completely possible to calculate when the shell must go boom, because its trajectory is pretty simple.

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